February Roundtable | LDS Dating & Marriage Culture

Once each month, the writers of The Chosen Generation will come together and conduct a roundtable discussion on the month’s theme.

Alison: Welcome to the one subject that is guaranteed to make me run and/or start zoning out: LDS dating culture!

Madeline: And one of the many topics that gets me fired up (usually in a defensive/angry/soap box-y way)!

Morgan: I only have strong feelings about this topic. Forgive me if I stART SPEAKING IN ALL CAPS [Alison: I feel like there will be a lot of ALL CAPS  here as well]. It’s involuntary, I promise.

Madeline: I feel like we should introduce ourselves really quick as far as dating goes. I’ve been single for three years. I’ve had one serious relationship which occurred during my senior year of high school and my first two years of college and was mostly long distance. I have not dated anyone seriously since, and my casual dating has been very limited (I’ve gone on first dates with like, three other people, and nothing serious ever developed) [Alison: though you do have some dang good stories from some of those]. [Madeline: Accurate, Alison. If people want some entertaining bad date stories, boy, do I have you covered.]

Alison: I win the prize for least experience, I’m pretty sure. Haven’t been on a date in three years (of like, five first dates total in my life), haven’t ever been in a relationship, haven’t been kissed, haven’t even done that whole cuddling/holding hands whatever thing. I have, however, thought I’ve been pretty close to being in love and subsequently rejected twice, and in hindsight, both have been MASSIVELY DODGED BULLETS.

Conor: I’ve been in one serious relationship that ended about a month ago and don’t really go on dates.

Morgan: I have had one semi-boyfriend (We didn’t want to “put labels” on it. It lasted a couple weeks. He was shady. End of wildly abbreviated story.) and I average about 4-5 first dates per year. BUT LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY ACADEMIC PURSUITS PLEASE.

Kennerley: Well, I’m the only one here whose eternal salvation is secure [Madeline: We’ll be your ministering angels once we reach the other side.], you darn heretics. I’ve been married for a little over two years to a man I met at BYU, so nothing too out-of-the-ordinary there. And I am by no means experienced as I’ve only had one other relationship in high school that wasn’t that great (sorry, Jacob. Best of luck with the baby.)

Alison: Alright, now that that’s out of the way like those awkward first getting to know you questions, let’s move into the meat of this, shall we?

Madeline: To put it simply? LDS dating culture needs a MASSIVE OVERHAUL. I’m talking new manuals (or NO MANUALS at all!), updated relationship courses if we must teach something through a church lens, a new perspective on the modern courtship and marriage process and timeline that infiltrates church culture as well as church doctrine, and a completely different attitude about how marriage affects someone’s personhood (Kennerley: Because really, it doesn’t. You’re the same person married to someone who is the same as they were before. You don’t become perfected during marriage, but more in the process of being married. And that takes a long time.). (Madeline: Totally agreed, Kennerley.)

Alison: It’s pretty much the worst, and honestly, it comes down to one big thing for me: it’s all seen as just a game for a lot of people. Especially at BYU.

Morgan: Ok but here’s my number one issue: we need to not talk about these things at church. I go to church to learn about Jesus. I love Jesus so much. He’s the best and I could talk about him forever, and I love hearing insights from other church members. But when I have a whole three hour block dedicated to teaching me how to date better because I’m “clearly not very good at it” (Thanks dear Stake President) I feel like those hours are wasted and I leave church feeling inadequate and missing the Spirit.

Conor: Is this an appropriate place for a polygamy joke about Morgan and Jesus? [Morgan: well now I’m curious about the joke]

Madeline: I was told in my lesson on Sunday that single women should make the Lord their partner while they wait for marriage (or if they’re widows, or divorced) so I say it’s entirely appropriate. (*gags* *throws up* *screams* *dies* *realizes I’m doomed in the eternities* *decides to get married to a Strippling Warrior*) [Kennerley: Who then do the single men make their partner? And why Jesus? We can still love someone and worship them without being romantically involved. Or is that the point?]  [Morgan: I’m holding out for one of those darling little English soldier boys who died in the WWI trenches tbh.] [Alison: If we’re doing hoped for things, sign me up for WWII pilots]  [Madeline: Or you could be an apostle’s second wife, because as we all know, they can’t marry anyone who’s not a virgin. And I changed my mind–I want a WWII navy officer.]

Alison: To Morgan’s point, here’s the deal: you have to know the Lord and be spiritually developing on your own too. President Eyring even said that “it is only with the companionship of the Holy Ghost that we can hope to be equally yoked in a marriage free from discord.” I don’t know about you, but I think that’s the kind of marriage I want: an equal partnership of two people, working together.

Madeline: I totally agree, Conor. But I don’t think that kind of partnership is exactly preached from the pulpit. “The Proclamation to the World” still prescribes incredibly rigid gender roles despite all its talk of “equality,” and young men and young women are held to certain but different standards regarding singleness (i.e. Men aren’t fulfilling their priesthood duties if they aren’t seriously thinking about marriage; women need to be more attractive in order to secure a husband; men must be spiritually weak if they aren’t married, etc., etc.).

Alison: Oh man, when we get to horror stories, have I got a few about stake conferences that were so so so bad on this topic. Including the one where a group of guy roommates was shamed in front of the entire stake because they were all sitting together, not with girls. And literally on all sides of them were groups of girl roommates, who no one called out. There’s just so much pressure and constant nagging about dating and getting married that I think it starts to be seen more as an obligation and less as a massively important decision to choose an eternal partner, someone to love and share your life with in all ways and who should help make you better and who you should help progress as well.

Kennerley: The thing about these strict gender roles in terms of dating and singleness is that they transfer over into marriage as well. My husband and I have had opportunities to travel together, but when we’re with his family they assume I’m just following him around and that I’m so lucky I have him. It makes me want to scream a little because I would be travelling regardless if I were married, and its a decision we came to before we were even formally engaged.

Morgan: Right, Kennerley. And those gender roles are also why I also have a problem with the activities that leaders use to force men to ask out women they wouldn’t have asked out on their own. [Alison: I FREAKING HATE THOSE OH MY GOSH] That kind of activity turns women into an object lesson, and therefore objectifies women in a way. It reinforces the stereotype that men must ask women on dates, and that women are just standing by, waiting impatiently to be asked.

Alison: And then you get to the problem that…all the same girls get asked, then. It’s always more outgoing girls who don’t come across as any kind of “threat,” I think. There’s just so much cookie cutter-ness that I think it really inhibits people from feeling like they can be themselves.

Madeline: YES! There seems to be a prescribed personality as well as a physical appearance for being attractive and desireable in the Mormon culture, and those of us (especially women) who are intellectually-focused, not necessarily desirous to be SAHMs (which is, of course, a totally cool thing if that’s what you want), and generally fall outside the Mormon parameters of what is “good” in a future partner, are often told we’re going to be left hanging.

Kennerley: Exactly. And I’m a strong believer in meeting potential spouses in places where you have a common interest. Sure it doesn’t always happen like that, but it helps. My husband and I met in an Intro to International Development class because we were both interested in intellectual engagement, international travel, and making a difference. These kinds of traits need to be shared for a marriage to work. If I married someone who didn’t want to travel and just wanted me to stay home, we’d both be really frustrated because that’s different from what I want. And singles wards are great because you do get a kind of diversity you don’t get in major-specific classes and stuff, but it’s hard if you’re picky about who you want to be with, which is totally valid.

Alison: Ugh, see, I hate singles wards, and I actually think in a lot of ways they make the problems worse. The whole focus becomes getting people married, and it creates this weird holding space where you feel like you’re not a “real” adult because you’re not married; you’re just some kid who should probably hurry up and pick anyone already.

Morgan: YSA WARDS ARE THE EQUIVALENT OF PURGATORY THERE I SAID IT.

Conor: Yeah, I’m all for abolishing YSA wards.

Alison: I don’t know if abolishing or just massively restructuring would be better. And I’m also not sure if it’s just a Provo/BYU student ward thing or if it’s the same all over, though I do remember my home stake singles ward being similar in some ways (hence why I never went when I was still at home).

Madeline: Purgatory is a great example. My sister, who is 19, gets to go to a “grown up” ward because she’s getting married, but I’m regaled to a speed dating event every Sunday because I’m not quite that mature. Or so it seems. My proposed plan? Singles wards are done away with, and singles in the area will meet up twice a month at large events (structured to allow for meeting one another but also something enjoyable, like a guest lecturer, a trip to a cultural event, etc.). [Alison: And not, “FHE this week we’re watching YouTube videos and making pillow forts and everyone should come so you’ll fall in love!!!” Like, ew no. That does not sound enjoyable to me at all. It sounds infantile and while doing fun kid-like things can be fun on occasion, at this point in my life, I’m looking for a man not a boy, honestly.] This way, singles can be a part of a larger, more diverse ward group (which can demonstrate the benefits of a good marriage more so than a three-person bishopric ever could) while still engaging with members close to their age.

Morgan: Madeline, I like that idea. And I think that singles FHE groups are really productive too, providing a smaller group—a “pseudo-family”—so that people (like me) who can’t make friends in large crowds can meet in a more introvert-friendly way. [Alison: See, I hate singles FHE because I feel like it forces friendships, which I hate]

Madeline: So maybe offering a wide range of singles’ events, not shaming singles who chose to attend some and avoid others, and generally encouraging a personalized way of meeting potential friends and partners. Basically, how the rest of the world works, but without all the premarital sex.

Conor: I think some of the problem is theological at the root. Like, we have no idea what to do with single people. There’s no real sense of what to do with singles. Like, single men over a certain age are met with great suspicion and single women are met with pity. (Of course this problem is even worse for LGBT members and that’s probably a discussion for another day).

Madeline: Right again, Conor. I think much of our hysteria surrounding single people comes from this idea that we’ll be lost in the eternities. We won’t be able to become like our Heavenly Parents, and in doing so, we somehow disappointed them and failed to live up to our godly potential. There’s very little knowledge about the different degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom itself, and if everyone will have the opportunity to get married in the next life if such an option is not presented in this one, then why is there even a need for these other levels? Basically, as single people, we don’t have the answers to, “Where do we go when we die?” and I think that’s kind of scary. Is that kind of what you were getting at?

Kennerley: I think we have to recognize a definite bias in our group haha. So I’m bringing in my sister Jensen to explain why she likes her singles ward. [Madeline: Excellent idea, Kennerley. We’re all a little salty up in here.]

Jensen: Compared to the family ward I grew up in, you have mostly older people with a different perspective from me. That’s not a bad thing, but it’s been refreshing being a ward of people my age. Like with the older people they would complain about their kids or how exhausting being a mother is, I didn’t always feel super spiritual. But being at BYU with people who grew up with the Church and have lots of experiences with it is really neat. And in my ward, dating isn’t mentioned as much. Every so often someone will make a comment but it’s not a focus in lessons.

Morgan: I think that’s a very good point, Jensen. I do like being with people who are all going through the same thing as me. (Also bless your ward for keeping dating talk to a minimum. I’ve been in 2 wards in a row where it’s mentioned at least once every meeting, if it’s not entirely centered around the topic) But at the same time, there’s a kind of divide between the older sisters and younger single sisters in Relief Society (I can’t speak to the male side of this) [Conor: I’ll speak to the male side  and it is also there. EQ in my home ward is the worst. I mean, it’s the worst here too, but for different reasons.] and I wonder if the divide is because of YSAs? I think that part of going to church is learning to empathize with people from all walks of life, in every stage of life, etc. and I don’t know if the homogeneity of YSA wards do that. THEN AGAIN I am speaking from the center of Provo, Utah, which is about as homogenous as it gets. I’ve heard much better things about YSA wards outside of Utah.

Madeline: So venting and complaining have their place (obviously I am all about that life), but what do we think we might do (or encourage others to do) to shift the current negative narrative that we as singles often feel a part of?

Alison: I think talking more about the whole point of dating and becoming your own person. I mean, instead of talking about it like an obligation, talking about it like a serious thing that leads to a union between two people, brought together in God, to become like Him. It’s not a game, and it really shouldn’t be treated as such. We should talk more about the practicalities of getting married, of what that really means, and what we should do to prepare ourselves and what to look for/be for a partner.

Kennerley: I totally agree and because I’m married I’m automatically the expert. But you can’t expect to go into marriage and suddenly becoming fulfilled. Alison can attest, but I was super messy as a roommate, particularly with laundry and general disorderliness. [Alison: Eh, it wasn’t too bad. You at least kept it on your side of the room And it’s not like I was much better, haha] Now that I’m married, that hasn’t changed. I’m not the neat one and probably never will be. So expecting a marriage to make you a better person neglects the fact it’s you that makes you a better person (and God to, I suppose. But it’s your own choice and all).

Morgan: I always go back to that quote by Boyd K. Packer: “True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior.” I want to go back to basics. I want church to focus on the Gospel, not secular tips and tricks for Catching Yourself a Man. [Alison: GOOD POINT. Because after all, good marriages are made of good people, I’ve always thought.] [Madeline: I love that, Alison. “Good marriages are made of good people.”]

Madeline: I would like our talk of relationships to be first about ourselves and the Savior. What can we do to improve our reliance on and understanding of Him? Secondly, I think talking about creating relationships with ourselves is massively important. Asking ourselves, “Who am I as a person? What are my dreams and my desires? What do I want to achieve in this life? Do I like sleeping on the right or the left side of the bed?” is necessary to creating a healthy relationship with another person. [Alison: Also, COMMUNICATION. It’s so important, and I feel like when people talk about dating/marriage, they never mention it? When it’s SO IMPORTANT] And finally, when we do talk about marriage in church, let’s talk about forming healthy relationships that include communication (thanks, Alison!), a sex-positive outlook on intimacy, how we might help one another achieve our desires, and how together two people can accomplish great things (not limited to child-having and rearing). For all the talk about the importance of marriage, I was never told in church that I needed a partner who would love and respect me. I was told I needed a priesthood holder, a temple recommend owner, a returned missionary–but never a partner who would love and cherish me, and as Marjorie Pay Hinckley said, “Would let me fly.” Maybe that was supposed to be a “given,” but it would have been gratefully received and I think necessary positive reinforcement for girls who didn’t have parents who exemplified those traits in their own marriage and encouraged those kinds of relationship for their children.

Morgan: Exactly, Madeline. I think it’s about continuing to live life, regardless of your relationship status. There is nothing productive about sticking to a certain location just because it has a higher percentage of eligible potential spouses. [Alison: I was actually told the other day that I would probably have more prospects somewhere that wasn’t Provo/Utah. Do I know if that’s true? Nope. I haven’t a clue] Pursue things academically. Pursue things adventurously. Pursue things spiritually. Become the person God wants you to be—the person they made you to be. And then you’ll be following Their plan and if/when you’re supposed to meet your spouse, you will.

Conor: I’m all for people working on being the best people that they can and living their life in a way that is productive for what they’re doing and being open to marriage and relationships, so basically amen to what Morgan said.

Alison: At the same time, I think marriage is still really important and complicated. Watching my siblings and older cousins get married and talking to my parents, there’s a whole lot of factors that go into every marriage and relationship. And it’s messy and not really a science at all, and it’s an individual thing. There’s no one size fits all.

Madeline: Any additional final thoughts before we wrap this up? I’m sure all of us have academic pursuits (among other things) that need attending to.

Morgan: Just a reminder that you are not your relationship/marital status.

Alison: But actually, I don’t know. Maybe that just I have hope that there’s people out there that are still hopelessly romantic and think about the weight of such a massive decision and step? And mostly, maybe that we start thinking about marriage as a coming together of two people to fulfill the plan that God has for us. [Madeline: There definitely are, because I am one of them.]

Madeline: You are whole and complete, needed and necessary, and loved eternally by your Heavenly Parents (not to mention a myriad of other people) regardless of your marital status.

Conor: I think everyone should read this lovely thing (also, you’re great and relationships require the assent and mutual agency of 2 people so it’s only partially in your control, so do the best you can, but remember that marriage is not totally in your control, so it’s alright if it hasn’t happened): http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/2015/5/30/sexuality-and-singledomnavigating-with-clarity-and-integrity [Madeline: YAS! DR. FINLAYSON-FIFE IS AMAZING.]

Kennerley: So I’m not sure what to write this month. What do you guys want to know about marriage that you haven’t learned in Church or whatever?

Madeline: Kennerley, maybe discuss how church teachings about marriage did or did not translate into your own marriage? Idk tho, bc I’m single AF. I personally will be writing a review of dating seminar my mother is encouraging me to attend and I am paying $75 for, so look out for that.

Alison: Kenn, maybe something like the most important things to think about/do/work on/become that might make marriage easier? Or that you wish you knew before? I honestly don’t know oh gosh this question is making my panicky AAAAAAAAAH

Conor: Ummm, great question. A standard what do you wish you’d known sorta thing? Also, any thoughts on what I should write about?

Alison: I think I’m going to go with why BYU dating culture really gets on my nerves, and how I think it’s changed radically in even the past few years (from what I’ve observed from siblings) and maybe a bit on why our dating culture is often impossible for introverted/shy/busy and driven people. Also, why I hate “the game.”

Kennerley: Conor, since you’re our token male, maybe a male perspective of dating? I don’t know. You’re more than your gender haha.

Conor: I’ll provide the “Definitive Male Perspective on Dating” because I’m definitely representative of the male population and have authority to speak for them/it.

Madeline: Love the confidence, Conor. Women love it when men are assertive.

Alison: In short, “Mawwiage. Mawwiage, is what brings us [to blogging] todahy.”

Conor: Glad this is here to provide our Mormon legitimacy, I mean, if there’s a blog post about marriage without quoting The Princess Bride is it really, Mormon?